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GO ITA Bashi is an expert on influence operations foreign interference social media manipulation and digital authoritarianism these of course are themes that are going to be especially relevant today as we discuss the events unfolding in Georgia uh iter also uh currently works as a research associate at the Atlantic Council welcome to Silicon curtain please like subscribe and comment on all of our videos that will help you to discover more great speakers that we feature on the Channel please also check out the validated Ukrainian Charities that appear in the description of the video it’s incredibly important to help Ukraine remain resilient in the face of Russian aggression I’m guessing we’re going to need to start putting potentially some links to Georgian Civil Society organizations in there as well too because it’s quite clear that Georgia also needs to remain resilient but is this under Russian pressure or not well this is a topic we’re going to be discussing today welcome to the channel pleasure to be joining you Jonathan well let’s start with this question uh about whether what we’re seeing is a local authoritarian slide uh with the dream party or can we see traces of Russian pressure Russian influence and maybe even some kind of Direction from the Kremlin uh in terms of the events unfolding and of course the infamous foreign agents law yeah uh the Russian style foreign agent law basically encapsulates um the broader ambition of the ruling georgean dream party and this Ambitions are to bring Georgia more closer to Moscow and to cement the country on that orbit as well as to of course to abandon the current Count’s year Atlantic aspirations um and frankly this is this is the first time in Georgia’s history when the governing ruling party has officially declared the shift in the nation’s Euro Atlantic um foreign policy alignment um two things are very important to understand for that the majority the big majority of Georgians uh up to 80% want to see um their country joining European union and More than 70% of Georgians want to see their country to join uh NATO um on the other hand um there is an article in your Georgian Constitution uh article 79 which says that all the Constitutional bodies basically the government agencies should ensure um uh that Georgia joins your Atlantic family so this is the this is the current situation um in terms of the will of Georgians and what should the Georgia’s official foreign policy be uh despite the increasing scale of protests and um um intensity of the protests in comparison to last year because it’s not the first time the Georgian um dream tries to push this law uh the ruling party continues to to basically do so um amid violent suppress um of the protest um to to to understand the broader context we should go back to 2012 when ruling georan dream party basically won the elections back then um the party tried to camouflage itself as Pro western pro-democratic party basically trying to ensure The Wider Georgian society that the chosen foreign policy will be continued um and then in their first term it was not that much evident to many people that something was wrong with their actions because on the one hand we had statements which were reaffirming many times Georgia’s new Atlantic aspirations and on the other we had actions which didn’t really align with the statements um then in the second term um more things became clear especially after Russia’s reinvasion of Ukraine in February 2022 um this marks a period when the high officials of joran dream and the government uh basically um uh opened all their cards and started to attack the West openly and started to attack Ukraine openly um there were many and I guess we will have time to elaborate all the Nar on the narratives and information operations but basically what we saw following the reinvasion of Ukraine was that um the blame of the West that the West uh is to blame for Russia’s war in Ukraine and that um um the Georgian Dream party was trying to prevent the second invasion uh of Russia in Georgia um it I should highlight that the oligarch between II the person and the leader who is standing behind the party um he he made his fortune in Russia back in 90s um we’re talking about um officially billion but these are just official numbers MERS um and we’re talking about a person who made his fortune in Russia and then he came back to Georgia um in addition to his past like business making in Russia there were many reports um starting from Transparency International continued with local Georgian investigative journalists exposing his Russia links with businessmen and with various actors so of course this um strengthens the assessment of men in Georgia that there are some Russian links are behind of what’s happening in the country and in addition I should highlight that uh emit the criticism the way the the large wave of the criticism coming from the US and EU Russia was the only actor who was supporting this bill and calling on International Society to not interfere in your just um Domestic Relations uh Affairs and of course the big question is where does it lead because the government’s democratically elected it’s won several mandates um but the leader of the opposition was badly beaten I believe last week and as you say they are increasing signs of authoritarianism do people have a general sense or even a fear of where this is going because one of the propaganda narratives of course uh that came up in Ukraine is that yanukovich was democratically elected this is a coup against democratic government Etc but when that government reneges upon its mandate when it takes a policy it was essentially a core part of the reason it was voted in and then is seen to be reversing that you could make the argument that they are you know no no longer uh really fulfilling um the the people’s will uh but it’s a very difficult question isn’t it because propaganda makes huge use of this idea that you know and they did this in Ukraine as well that this is a coup against a democratically elected government it’s a color Revolution it we know the kind of narratives um what do people feel about this and then we’ll come on to the second part of the question do we see this propaganda starting to emerge sure it’s very important question for the Georgian context because uh we’ve been observing yearslong influence and propaganda efforts not only from Georgian Dream side but also directly uh the actors directly affiliated with the Kremlin as well as the Kremlin officials and their aim was to um prepare the context for this moment uh I mentioned the Russia’s re invasion in Ukraine and why it was very important for Georgian context starting from the that period one of the main disinformation narratives that emerged in Georgia was that the West as well as Ukraine were working together or maybe separately to drag Georgia into war with Russia this narrative was pushed um by Anonymous social media accounts into Georgian information space on Facebook on telegram Etc but more importantly this narrative was pushed by the um uh high level officials of the Georgian uh dream party uh in 2022 there happened a major shift in Georgia’s information space if before those were the openly PR cramling political parties pring forid groups or individuals who were attacking the West openly and blaming that the West wanted um the war in Georgia what happened uh in 2022 was that the Georgian Dream uh basically took this role from the openly Pro Russian parties and they they became the major actors pushing uh all the Kremlin disinformation narratives in to Georgian um information space so we saw emergence of the narrative that uh the West was trying to drag Georgia into war and this is very important narrative because Georgian Society of course remembers the trauma of 2008 War when Russia invaded uh Georgia and of course nobody wants to see another war in in the country and then and of course they are trying that the ruling party is trying to capitalize on the fear of Georgian society that if we do not have peace Russia if if you’re going towards the West this this will mean another war in Georgia same to Ukraine so concurrently to this narrative there emerged not emerged but reemerged another narrative which claim that which claimed that the West as well as the Western funded ngos in Georgia are are trying to organize the violent overthrow of the government AC in um Idan in Ukraine um this narrative is not new in Georgia every attempt of um Pro democracy demonstration in Georgia basically every every demonstration which was anti-government or the government did not really like um everything has uh was camouflaged as Revolution attempt by them and and the aim is very um uh basically very clear to Del legitim to delegitimize every Democratic movement and every Affair critics of the government um this narrative um Not only was pushed by forid groups and other Pro Russian actors but State security service of Georgia back in um September 2023 um brought this narrative to another level when they officially blamed the usaid for organizing the for financing the organization of violent overthrow of the government so um uh I really want to highlight the scale of the um influence effort and information operations targeted at Georgian Society there are um social media accounts which are pushing these narratives there are Kremlin statements coming out of Pesco lav Etc there are statements from Georgian governments and then there are um I don’t know the website sites and other Affiliated actors basically all of this machine trying to uh tell Georgians that if uh there happens in October parliamentary elections that opposition wins and the and the ruling Georgian party loses and people come to protest this will be all uh illegal and illegitimate so they are basically preparing all this uh ground to to declare every protest uh during October uh parliamentary elections as an um illegitimate and last but not least um I mentioned far groups um and maybe we can elaborate on them later in our talk but they used to play very important role in the um in um in the government’s efforts to bring Georgia um to to distance Georgia from the west and one of those far right groups alt info um they created anti- euroman movement basically announcing the Crackdown on of any protest if they happen in October during uh parliamentary elections so basically all the stage uh is set for more violence during uh election period in Georgia and we’ve seen some of that violence already unfolding as I mentioned the leader of the opposition has uh has been beaten quite severely which I think uh inter to hear opinion but that that would be a shock shock I’m sure to Georgian Society we’ve also seen uh undercover thugs uh people not necessarily in police uniforms um on a small scale so far but inflicting extreme violence against protesters now if this unfolds using the typical Kremlin Playbook that we saw in Kev then we would expect this violence to actually increase significantly do you think that will happen and what is the risk for the Georgia dream party uh in terms of you know losing its uh uh mandate with the people if it resorts to extreme violence um I believe that what what we’re seeing currently is that ruling Georgian Dream party is making clear to Georgians as well as the Western partners that they are all in that basically they are not going to back and um they will pass this law no matter um domestic War external pressure this was one of the elements or this was basically one of the main pillars in oligarch B vulis speech couple of days ago when he addressed the nation and basically said that he he mentioned um Ukraine’s former pro Russian president yanukovich saying that he is not yanukovich and the way that ukrainians succeeded in Ukraine back then in defending their European future this will not happen in Georgia this was one of his main messages um in his speech so basically we know that the intention is to push this law as well as Implement all the um all the subsequent um um authoritarian style uh Crackdown he he basically announced the Soviet style Crackdown on descent he he mentioned that after the election there will be moral um and legal consequences for for for Collective um basically people who who who who are against gean dream and critical voices uh so we know that the intentions are serious um and we know that the Georgian Dream is not going to back um but what we know and what we have seen during all these days it’s basically the third week that the protests are not stopping in Georgia is that the Georgian people are also firm in their um statement that they are not going to back either and they are going to defend democracy and their European future um at any costs so to answer your question it it means that there are more risks that the situation will um escalate and we will see more violence coming out of um um law enforcement agencies but you mentioned very important thing people Men In Black um uniforms and B clovs without no identification Mark and without no affiliation to law enforcement agencies beating um Georgian protesters students and we’re talking about students and children and there are numerous footages of of of these incidents online which went viral so it means that um uh we can also do another parallel with yanukovich when he used dkis basically the term coined in Ukraine meaning all these men in black who are agent provocators and who are trying to beat people and instigate some um um fights in order to lead to further arrest so if we saw the tier gas deployed if we saw the um water cannon rubber bullets Etc we are also seeing tush is deployed so this means that the step by step the government and the ruling party basically are escalating and they will be escalating more um if a protest continue and his speech was interesting wasn’t it because it seemed to be extremely um paranoid it’s not in line with the majority of how I think Georgians perceive their society and perceive the current situation um is this the clearest indicator of how he’s aligning and some of his mentality because I think previously there’s been a certain amount of that has not really been apparent or it’s been kind of hidden so why why now why make such a a blatant speech now has he misread the mood or there are other reasons uh behind it I think um um Ian um mentioned the answer to this question in his own speech he basically said that um Georgian Dream needs to pass this Russian style law now so that there is three months or four months before election so their intent is to exhaust Civil Society media ngos Etc so that they are the resourc right now and they do not have um um all the resources to defend elections later so the this point was very clearly done by eventually in his speech um he also basically announced and declared the West as an external enemy and Georgian civil society as internal saying that they will be faced by all these repressions not only uh during the uh attempt to defend elections but of course before as well so I would say that that the target is clear to exhaust civil society and to to start um announced repressions uh over the summer and also it’s um the summer seems to be very useful um period for many authoritarian rulers it’s way it’s a season when they are um uh invading other countries it’s a season when they are um introducing various um repressive laws because people are oriented on um vacations um and I guess that uh this this another reason even uh decided to push this law right now um so yeah um I guess the Georgian people Georgian Civil Society will be faced with two options either they um collaborate and stay silence or um they will have to leave the country and if they will not leave the country if they do not leave the country they will be faced with administrative and criminal uh offenses as uh as we have seen in many authoritarian countries um in a well tested and well played Facebook um Playbook okay and the strength of Civil Society because of course uh maidan or the revolution of dignity could only have happened because of the um relatives of decentralization that that had happened over the preceding years um that decentralization is not something I understand that that really is part of the you know Georgian government Administration um and whereas Ukrainian Civil Society got far stronger after Myan it already had a kind of threshold strength so how would you compare Civil Society strength and self-organization in Georgia to Ukraine and also this question of um Nos and Civil Society groupings many of them do get their money from outside the country because of course you know the understanding is that there’s not that much money in the country to be able to fund this do does anyone see NOS as being a sort of undue or foreign influence or something negative in Georgian Society or are they more typically seen as positive just a sense of how you know whether this government law is sort of out of line with the majority thinking or or not I’ll start with a second question I really want to highlight that all the donors who are represent the majority of the donors who are represented in Georgia starting from usid NED or european donors they are not only financing the uh Georgian Civil Society but they are also financing the government activities and this is basically very ironical from the government to claim that those who are receiving the the funds from the outside of course the West are basically the enemies of the country um I would say that the um all the noos are doing and we’re talking about like I don’t know big election Watchdogs the ngos who are exposing Corruptions we’re talking about those ones who are exposing the wrongdoings during all these years of course the ngos um have been not only uh paying the taxes but providing the open Declarations of how and where the funding coming from the um donors spent were spent in Georgia so of course this this is not the case um again I would say that the majority of the NGS are perceived in a positive way because of the their work uh of Defending human rights promoting democracy um and I would say that uh all these years the narratives pushed by the government attempted to discredit this ngos in our work we have covered multiple instances when for example the government Affiliated Facebook Network and this affiliation was made clearly by Facebook itself meta in their official statements they have been running cover networks which were pushing narratives undermining Nos and Civil Society and uh um basically trying to discredit them in in addition to to to Georgian government’s efforts to discredit the ngos we have also seen the similar narratives coming out of the kremling officials themselves so despite all these efforts of first targeting NGS and Civil Society um uh and second um uh all these basically information operations we still think that the protest are happening and that all these propaganda efforts did not really work when it comes to um broader aim of um Georgia becoming European uh family member I want to highlight that in comparison to the last year protest and also the protest that have been happening throughout these years there is a very um big shift in a in in an organization way if before those were the public figures or political figures who were organizing the protest calling on people to take to the streets Etc these protests have not seen any leader any vertical of organization they are purely decentralized um people are just um just Georgian people themselves are the organizers um there are some Facebook groups that has been created throughout this days basically helping each other to um um for example to to bring some people from various regions to toia because there were many Georgians who wanted to be present in t protest but they they couldn’t afford transportations or they couldn’t come to T for various reasons so we saw that there are like decentralized movements of Georgians all around the country basically go taking to the streets with the same aim to to to defend country’s European future uh so so I would say that um in terms of this um Georgian people are presented in a very resilient way um and it makes this protest very attractive and promising let’s turn to the propaganda side because it’d be interesting to understand whether I mean clearly the georgean dream are already trying to label these protests as foreign funded they’re trying to put the label on them that this is uh you know a color Revolution Etc we know this kind of language uh from the propaganda we saw uh around um uh my Myan and the subsequent processes that happened there um do we see this propaganda coming primarily from within Georgia or are we seeing traces already that uh troll Farms bot networks Etc are being activated um I mean to to add to that I saw an interesting article in a left leading Journal um where which suggested to me that certain you know academic influen is being activated as well to uh to paint these as a western inspired imperialistic inspired uh Revolution as opposed to organic process so what have what have you seen so far and how do you think this will play out yeah um in our work um basically doing the research around social media and primarily Facebook because Facebook is number one um social media in Georgia used by many many Georgians uh we have seen how um tens of thousands of dollars are spent on the Facebook posts or images Etc to convince Georgian society that these are uh Western orchestrated demonstrations and the posts are posted by government Affiliated Facebook um groups and Pages as well as um media Outlets um but when we’re talking about the influence operations I would not um distinguish between domestic and external because they are pretty much mixed because there are some actors who are directly affiliated with Russia and then there are don’t know the government actors who are basically pushing the the same uh narratives as well as are part of the same operations so I would say that the Russian effort to influence Georg information um space it counts many many years in 2020 parliamentary elections for example Russian propaganda platforms Sputnik and news front they they were directly engaged in a cover Facebook Network which was trying to um uh Target Georgia’s pro-western parties uh and uh popularize Georgian Dream of course this is this is one of the direct signs of foreign interference and 2020 we also saw cyber attacks which were trying to S fear and Chaos uh in the in the period leading up to elections there were many cases both covert and overt where Russia tried to um influence and interfere uh in in uh in Georgia’s domestic affairs through information operations and these efforts have been continuing till now and pushing the narrative that the protests are not legitimate and they are all orchestrated by the West to overso the government is basically one of the leading things we we have saw for example how um the Kremlin directly the actors directly affiliated with a Kremlin are pushing this on Georgian telegram there are various telegram channels created to to only push the idea that if something goes wrong in October and in going wrong I mean if Georgian Dream loses this means that these people who we were telling you about that they are Western backed they will be organizing violent overthrow so basically there has been um much money put in this and there are huge networks on face both Facebook Telegram and as well as other platforms who are trying to create all these preex for for for um uh October election period This has uh a curious kind of echo doesn’t it around the so-called 6th of January uh in Washington and labeling Biden’s Victory as stealing the vote as illegitimate as a false result it seems to be a common tactic amongst aspiring authoritarians to cast out on Democratic institutions democr process and I would say create the ground for a constitutional coup so is this something that is in the minds of many of the protesters that if they don’t protest now the next election uh could be the last free and fair one in fact if the foreign agent law passes then the next election may not even be free and fair yeah I would say that many people in Georgia do know how the similar process took place in Russia when in 2012 the similar the the the the mirroring law was introduced in Russia and of course the the wording and everything was similar to what we have right now and then how in the following years um in 201 13 and then 15 17 Etc how the amendments were made to this law and how uh in addition to specific NOS media and individuals were targeted and how this law was used to repress um descent in Russia uh I think it it happened yesterday or two days ago when another amendment went to this law basically saying that the foreign agents will not be able to um uh vote in Russian elections so this is another um level basically addit and another layer added to the law so many people in Georgia understand that this if introduced this law will be just the beginning and the same um that happened in Russia will be happening in Georgia and this is what Zan said in his speech so I think that given that there is a big understanding of this in Georgia many more people are protesting and the protests are consistent um and yeah um in Russia itself in in ’90s I guess nobody could have thought that this was last free and fair elections because there is always this kind of Illusion in many societies that this cannot happen here and I guess the Georgians currently is trying to uh to think about the fact that about the thing that no this can’t happen here because it happened in Russia it happened in Belarus there was an attempt of this to happen in Ukraine and now we should act and let’s dig into some of the mechanics because this kind of uh constitutional coup doesn’t happen just overnight it requires investment in certain things networks of influence um we saw in Ukraine we see to an extent in Serbia Hungary and other places that actually um oligarchic networks uh networks of businessmen who are sort of you know coerced or funded from outside the country play a key role you sometimes have Mafia involved too and uh I would say criminal networks uh you have politicians and assets who are bought out um there are lots of different things that are put in place before what we’re seeing now which is the sort of it’s the mushroom that pops up uh in seasonally as you say you know summer is the mushroom season of uh of uh illegal sort of uh you know uh s coup and to take over the government but underneath that there’s this huge kind of network as as a mushrooming network has of of threads and connections which would have been invested in so do we know much about how potentially Russia or forces aligned with Russia have been investing in Georgian Society uh politicians Administration Etc to create the foundations for what we’re seeing now um during 2020 elections um there were couple of reports um showing that the Kremlin was directly financing uh various actors um both political parties and far groups for example one of the report was produced by um Estonian intelligence service which basically mentioned one of the farri pro Russian groups as an umbrella organization of Russia in Georgia to to conduct various um Russian influence activities then there was another report by um dosier Center an organization um founded by um kovski M kovski which basically provided some leaked documents showing how um one of the pro Russian political parties Alliance of Patriots was fin how their campaign was financed by Russia and how how it was managed by the Kremlin uh uh various Kremlin Act um the the Georgian prosecutor’s office um first of all they didn’t want to open the case to investigate uh because even these kind of claims are um are very serious for Georgia because the political parties cannot receive the outside pings uh in the election cycle um and then when when this topic was pushed by various um organizations the prosecutor’s office opened the case but um we didn’t see um any any of the findings if if these people were financed by Russia then there are many reports basically show for example by Transparency International Georgia which are showing how um Ian’s Clos Circle are becoming richer and richer day by day via um corruption schemes um and how basically these people serve um for this clipto critic regime to maintain the power so we have various reports showing that on the one hand there is a big um corruption Network um around ianes and then there is Russian effort to finance um the Georgian actors also many investigative journalists are saying that it is the cash that is flowing into Georgia and that’s why it’s it’s challenging to trace this cash um there were many reports starting from 2022 which were claiming that um Georgia is used by Russia as one of the countries to bypass the sanctions um imposed by the West um so we have all this network um and then last year uh it was for the first time in georg’s history us uh introduced two separate sanctions on the Georgian actors the first Set uh was introduced um against against four Georgian judges um who who are part of the so-called Clan who has captured the Judiciary in Georgia and basically is controlling the whole Judiciary System they were sanctioned for sign it’s it’s a quote from the US statement for significant corruption uh in the Georgian Judiciary System and then there was another sanction set introduced against otar parad who is a very close associate of B van and he who was a prosecutor General a couple of years ago during Georgian Dream and the reason of the sanctioning was that according to the US this person served um and basically worked together with Russian intelligence service FSB and he was basically their man in Georgia Who and the paraza tried to sway Georgian people and the country in general towards Russia and he he acted as an influence agent of Russia and Georgia so we have all these dots that are basically the connection of this the dots is suggesting that there are many actors both Georgian as well as Russia Affiliated that are working in Georgia together with even is to maintain this power and to kind of U um direct the country towards uh moscow’s orbit and of course money is the main pillar that the CLI kleptocratic regime in Moscow and in other countries t on and of course the interesting fact there is in Ukraine you had uh obviously had a strong influence of oligarchs especially in the media um and one of the features following the fullscale war is to prevent oligarchs from actually having controlling interests in any media organization and the centralization of media um under the state to try and push back against uh you know organized propaganda so those interesting Trends there but is this where Ukraine differs somewhat from Georgia because EV initially is he owns a huge portion actually of the economy and what you don’t have is a set of competing oligarchic interests fighting it out amongst themselves is this perhaps in some ways more challenging uh and does this mean because he’s got so much at stake and so much influence on the Georgian economy that actually this could be incredibly disruptive whichever way this struggle goes yeah um definitely Ian eventually is the richest person in Georgia who officially holding seven billions um made in Russia but of course unofficially um according to various reports we’re talking about tens of billion dollars um in in in various actives so yeah um I don’t think there is any another person in Georgia or around Georgia who would own the same um um amount of money and assets and who could influence the Georgian politics I mean using the the money and other assets so yeah definitely this this makes situation challenging and this was one of the arguments uh throughout these years of some political figures in Georgia that how how we can beat uh his assets how we can beat the um most influential and most uh the the richest person in Georgia but I would say that what has changed uh during last couple of days or what has become evident is that the majority of Georgians standing together in the street appears to be the medicine the The Bitter Sweet medicine um to this problem um I would say that there are there are really good chances that uh this medicine uh will be an answer to this existing problem and where do you see this going because Russia is in uh I would say call it ex existential because no one’s going to invade invade Russia but essentially the uh future of the Putin regime is put at risk um through you know it’s it’s it’s exhausting war in Ukraine uh the fact that it hasn’t made uh major progress there um the regime isn’t about topple but of course it’s under more pressure uh than it’s ever been before um if that wasn’t the case would you fear a Russian incursion into Georgia to suppress this situation um because Russia uh is is low on Hardware you know low on uh potentially you know trained trained bodies to perform a kind of 2008 style Invasion uh do you think it’s unlikely that Russia will try to intervene directly and will carry on you know working through its proxies might it also inject you know thugs Amon propagandists uh which it did when it seemed that lukashenko was about to lose his fight in berus and that of course unfortunately turned the tide back towards authoritarianism I would say that there was no time in Georgia’s modern history where there was no risk related to Russia uh particularly escalating um in a kinetic way um um as as many people know um Russia is still occupying 20% uh territory of Georgia uh basically having two Russia occupied regions abazia and sou societa where of course there is no um delimited uh any kind of so-called border and this is open where the kidnappings of people still continue I mean in a physical space um there is a creeping occupation meaning that the FSB uh so-called border guards are moving fences into the the territory controlled by the central government of Georgia almost daily um as I mentioned they kidnapping people from there uh there are many escalations happening on the so-called borders so this threat uh not to even mention the threats in the online space starting from cyber attacks and all these online influence operations they are already there um if for example the news uh coming out of Georgia do not reach International Society it doesn’t mean that um these are not happening we’re talking about um very large number of imprisonments of Georgian citizens uh by the FSB border guards for for for nothing on the very illegal round so these are already happening um and I think that Georgian people do know that um Russia Remains the number one national security threat to the country and um that that this um threat will be there it will always be there um and I again what has changed is that that there is a really big will to resist to this threat um so in conclusion I mean things are changing very rapidly do you remain optimist istic uh that the uh the people as it were the majority of people will uh Prevail in georia or is it difficult at this point to know how events are going to unfold um I I I remain um optimistic um because again this this these protests are unprecedented um uh at an unprecedented level um we have never seen this many people indust stre and we have never seen the proest continuing for this long and also there is another Factor uh so-called generation C basically the young people who who historically had this attitude that we’re not interested in politics and basically we don’t count on us to to say it very roughly but now we are seeing that these protests are driven by Jan Z and they are the ones who are standing in the first line facing the um law enforcement agents uh officers and telling them that it’s not the way uh to to to to do good for your country and these are the peoples who are saying that we are not going to back and we will be defending Georgia at any cost so given all these factors together I would say that I there are many signs to remain optimistic for um and we’ll be seeing it in a very nearest Future well we’ll continue to cover the story on the channel in detail as you say it’s not necessarily getting the coverage I think it deserves in mainstream media uh there’s a lot of stuff going on and we see um important stuff in Ukraine unfortunately dropping out of the main media narratives as well um so it’s important to get voices like yours on the ground well-informed voices who understand the mechanics of politics and Civil Society so iter thank you so much for coming on the channel and and do stay in touch we’ll continue to uh sort of post details as they happen I’ll also put uh links to your social media platforms uh Twitter X as it were Etc so people can uh stay up to date with what’s happening if they want to but thank you so much thank you so much for covering Georgia at this very crucial times